Notes & Queries

If you have any questions about the printed editions of Singing the Faith, please leave them below.

If you have a question about your copy of the electronic words edition, the first step you should take is: Consult the help files on the hymnview website. After that, if you still require help, please email the product publishers at

Alternatively, for any notes or queries about the Singing the Faith Plus website itself, drop us an email.

206 Responses to Notes & Queries

  1. Malcolm Cooper says:

    Please can someone tell me whay the popular Christmas carol called we three kings of orient are, is absentbfrom modern church hymnals. I sang it as a youngster in Sunday School but cannot find it in Hymns and Psalms and Singing the Faith. Is it about theology? I was hoping to use it at Epiphany worship next week. Aw shucks!

  2. Dick Cullingworth says:

    Metre – I have been puzzled for many years as to the meaning of periods in the metre. For instance, What is the difference between “” and “6 6 6 6″ or “66 66″ ?. I have noticed that “Singing the Faith” has dropped that usage, nevertheless, I am still curious.

    • Editor says:

      Hi Dick -

      Thanks for your enquiry – to which I’d reply that, basically, there’s no substantive difference at all. So far as I am aware, the use of periods and/or the pairing up of repeated digits for indicating metre is a matter of preference and what the printer thinks will be most easily readable. Certainly, I tend to pair up repeated digits for readability – e.g. 66.66 rather than

      I’m not quite sure what you mean about Singing the Faith “dropping that usage”, However, I’d point you to the metrical index on Singing the Faith Plus, which uses both periods and pairing

      I hope this helps a little.

  3. Beverley Jones says:

    This is so nit-picky that I hesitate to mention it, but verse 2 of StF 654 carries a typo; the word ‘foregoing’ should read ‘forgoing’. They do mean different things, i.e. ‘going before’ and ‘going without’. In this case I believe it is the latter which is intended.

  4. David W Thornton says:

    I was considering using George Herbert’s lovely poem at hymn 668, but then I saw how (presumably in an effort to avoid sexist language) verse 2 has been disgracefully mangled. Can somebody please produce a better, properly grammatical, version?

    • Editor says:

      Dear David – thanks for being in touch. As you point out, the editorial guidelines for Singing the Faith have led to the inclusivisation of this hymn – and, as you note, only verse 2 is affected. (You may find it helpful to read “Why were changes made to older hymns and songs?” on our Frequently Asked Questions page: The original wording for Herbert’s fine poem may be found quite easily elsewhere, for example in Hymns & Psalms, as well as in the 1993 Methodist Hymn Book. For ease, the wording has now been reproduced on the hymn post itself: I hope this helps.

  5. Editor says:

    Dear Bran – thanks for being in touch. I’m passing your enquiry on to those who will be able to answer more accurately than me.

  6. Editor says:

    Thanks for this Ian. I’m not sure if this has been noticed. I’ll pass it on to the producers of the CD set. There are plans, still in the discusson stage, to do a second run of the set, which has almost sold out.

  7. Editor says:

    Hi, Phil – we’ve published an amended list for CD 24, but you’ve raised an issue with a hymn not on that CD. I’ll forward it to those responsible for the CD production and let you know what their response is. Ed.

  8. Editor says:

    Hi Angela – all our hymn tunes are available in printed form in the music edition of Singing the Faith. You can find details of all the hymn book editions and how to purchase a copy here.

  9. Editor says:

    Hi Harold – thanks for your comment. You’ll see from our post for this hymn that there has been some discussion about the layout for this hymn. I’m glad you’ve found a way to make it work for you.

  10. Editor says:

    Mike – midi files are included in the complete CD set of piano accompaniments. However, copyright regulations prevent us from making midi files available as a separate, stand-alone resource.

    • Mike Cox says:

      Our Church has a Clavinova with a USB input . Our organist recently passed away and we would now like to play the Hymns in Singing the Faith through the Clavinova. We cannot input from the MP3 disc in the set, is there any way of transfering the files to a memory stick so we can play them on the Clavinova ?

      • Editor says:

        Hi Mike – from the folk who produced the CD/MP3 set: “1. Put the Midi Disc in a PC; 2. And then Data stick also – depending on size you may need 2 x 16G; 3. Drag files from 1 to the other”. Hope this helps.

  11. Editor says:

    Sue – midi files are included in the complete CD set of piano accompaniments. However, copyright regulations prevent us from making midi files available as a separate, stand-alone resource.

  12. Steven Barratt says:

    With regard to the piano accompaniments, can these be available as midi files to use through keyboards or as midi or MP3 files to use on computers linked to PA systems

    • Editor says:

      Steven – midi files are included in the complete CD set of piano accompaniments. However, copyright regulations prevent us from making midi files available as a separate, stand-alone resource.

  13. Editor says:

    Hi Bobby – I’m sorry you’re having problems. For the most useful response, I need to refer to refer you to the website page about the Electronic Words Edition and the further contact details there. I hope this is useful to you.

  14. Editor says:

    Hi Diane – yes, this problem has been picked up – you can find the ommitted verse 3 on the website post for this hymn –

  15. Paul Sheppard says:

    I was using the CDs this morning, intending to play no 586 (Here is bread, here is wine) which is down as Track 14 on the sleeve of CD 24. However Track 14 actually plays no 585 (God, whose love is all around us). Good job I had a trial run before our morning service!!
    Has this discrepancy been brought to the publishers’ attention previously? Might there be a replacement sleeve with correct numbering?

  16. David Meachem says:

    This query is about copyright and isn’t exactly about Singing the Faith per se.

    I’m preparing a choir for a large one-off event and we hope to sing StF 35: The Feast is Ready.

    Am I allowed to write harmony parts for the choir? Or do I need permission from anyone?

    • Editor says:

      Hi David – my sense is that this would not be a problem at all. So long as you are covered by the usual copyright requirements, the arrangement will be your own work and reproductions of this will be at your discretion. Since I assume that you will be using the books in any case, I’m sure you’ll have all bases covered. All good wishes with the event. If you want to report back to us afterwards, we’d love to hear about it. (Have you seen the report of the recent Cambridge event?

  17. Editor says:

    Hi Mike – I think you’ll find that this way of numbering the verses continuously (whichever sections of a psalm are used) is consistent throught the Psalm section of StF.

  18. Editor says:

    Hi Daniel – Singing the Faith uses the “related” sequence of readings as opposed to the “continuous” sequence – so there are differences primarily in the Old Testament and Psalm readings from after Easter/Pentecost through to the beginning of Advent. See our notes about hte lectionary at The good news is that, from now through 2017, we will be adding in suggestions for the alternative continuous” readings.

  19. Editor says:

    Hi Gareth – the asterisks indicate that the hymn is suggested for more than one reading in the list. But, no, we don’t say that…! Since we are just about to enter a new 3-cycle, it’s a good opportunity to amend our generic information. Thanks for the comment.

  20. We do provide the vast majority of hymns and songs in STF as PowerPoint files through IDEAS. There is also a free area with samples if you want to check them out.

  21. Editor says:

    Hi Kim – you’re quite right. This is curious. It has been picked up, though, in the list of corrections (Music edition) and on the post itself, which I’ve now clarified further Thanks for being in touch.

  22. Stuart Bell says:

    We often have a music group at church involving instruments with different pitches, usually brass in b flat. Is there a transposed version available to allow playing along with the piano without have to do all the transposing.

    • Editor says:

      I’m afraid we are not in a position to offer this facility, Stuart (and you’re not the first to have raised the question). It’s a question of going to music writing software such as Sibelius and using the transposition options there. Sorry we can’t be of more help.

  23. Editor says:

    To my knowledge, I’m afraid not Dee. Sorry.

  24. Mark Aldridge says:

    Guitar chords for StF 15 Capo 2. I think it should be E minor and not E sharp minor?
    Apologies if this has already been noted.

  25. Editor says:

    Hi Mike -

    you’re welcome to send texts (and tunes) via the regular StF+ email address: If you need to be in touch via post, then just say and we can pass you the appropriate mailing address.

  26. Editor says:

    Hi Graham. Regarding a list of hymn tunes – can I point you to the “Find hymns and songs page” of the website? Scroll down and you’ll find two or three indexing options that you can check and/or download. I hope this meets your requirements.

    So far as StF 25 is concerned, I’m surprised to hear about the apparent discrepancy. There are only four verses, as you say, so I can only assume that the CD producers intended the tune to be heard through in full before singing. I’ll forward your comment however.

  27. Graham Pearn says:

    I’ve just been looking at the guitar chords for Hymns. What a good idea I thought. But when I look at what is provided, I’m not so sure.

    The chords are presented over the words of the hymn, not the music. This assumes that you know the tune. Is there a reason why the chords are not written over the music? I would find this much more beneficial.

    • Editor says:

      Thanks for your feedback Graham. We take your point. There certainly is an assumption here that you can get to know the tune before adding chords. The music ediiton of the book has all the information you’d need for that. This particular method also helps us negotiate any copyright pitfalls – of which (as you will know) there are many!

  28. Lloyd Liles says:

    Why is is this Methodist publication not available through Methodist Publishing House?

  29. Rosemarie says:

    I have just received a presentation music edition as a gift. I was disappointed to find that it includes the word ‘presentation’ in gold on the front cover – surely unnecessary and not always accurate.

    • Editor says:

      I’m sorry you were disappinted Rosemarie. Responses to date have been very positive ot the presentation edition – and it seems to me that the heading “presentation” can refer to the style of the edition – not necessarily to a particular use.

  30. Liz Harris says:

    I have recently recieved ‘Singing the Faith’ music edition as a gift, with a view to introducing the resource in my church. Whilst it contains some great songs (I am using this term to include all songs, hymns, choruses etc), I would like to express my extreme frustration at the lack of guitar chords. I realise I am not the first person to say this, and I realise work is in progress to produce guitar-friendly versions of the songs. However, I still feel the need to voice my overwhelming disappointment – the Methodist Church projects itself as inclusive and progressive; unfortunatley, leaving guitar chords out of printed music demonstrates the opposite. Do the authors/editors really think that guitarists do not play these songs in churches? Of course we do! Was there really no room on the page? This resource could (and should) have been planned & executed much better.

    • Editor says:

      Morning, Liz – thanks for your comments. And ,yes, of course we understand your frustration. There were editorial constraints at the time of producing the book, which others would need to explain. However, for a good while now we’ve been wanting to try and address the issue here on StF+ and I’m pleased to say that, at last, we have made headway. Chord sheets are beginning to appear for a wide range of hymns and we will announce their presence more widely when we’ve completed uploading our first batch. They won’t, at this stage, be available for every hymn but they will provide a considerable supplement to what is printed in the book. So do please “watch this space”.

  31. Andy Reavell says:


    I work at the Uniting Church Centre in Western Australia (an amalgamation of Methodist, Congregational and Presbyterians in 1977). A congregational contact has asked me to look into the copyright implications of using Singing the Faith in worship, presumably data projected etc. in Australia. I am familiar with CCLI, LicenSing and CAL which tends to cover what is needed here but I have no knowledge of the publishers etc. for your publication. Can you advise please. Thank you

    • Editor says:

      Hi Andy – good to hear from you. Apologies for the slow reply.

      Most of the information you need you should be able to find on our Copyright matters page ( Scroll down the page and you’ll find particular information about CCLI and Calmus – if you’re registered with them, then you’ll find that pretty much all the hymns in Singing the Faith are covered for re-production for worship purposes. You may also wish to consider the Electronic Words Edition for projection purposes – it has its limitations but many people find it helpful: Do get back in touch if you have further questions.

  32. Carolyn Moody says:

    I have seen that the hymns available on Singing the Faith plus website can be reproduced. Do these have to be reported to CCLI as I have been unable to find a hymn we would like to use on the report form. Do they have to be reported to the CCLI.

    • Editor says:

      Often authors and/or composers have listed these texts with CCLI so it would always be better to err on the side of caution and include text details on your submissons.

  33. Sara says:

    Where is this on the CDs please?
    Listed as track 31 on CD24 (above track 1 on that CD) but we cannot find it!

  34. Editor says:

    Hi David Davies -

    I’ve received more information on your question about midi files and an organ:

    “Actually it depends on the organ. As the midi files also contain the signal for the sustain pedal if doesn’t work correctly on all organs.”

    I hope this helps a little.

  35. David Davies says:

    I tried one of the sample midi files and note that it plays as piano. We have a midi system that we play back through our organ – will the STF files play back through the organ?

  36. alan says:


    Is there a printed index available for the CD set?
    ie First line CD & Track

  37. Angela Evans says:

    It would be very helpful to have access to an electronic version of the music edition, rather than just the words, particularly as the hard backed music editions are so heavy to hold. Is it/will it be possible to purchase a licence/subcribe to an electronic music edition of the hymn book?

    • Editor says:

      Hi Angela – I’m afaid there are no plans for an electronic music edition. Copyright issues make this unlikely in the forseeable future I’m afraid.

  38. Victor Williams says:

    I notice that you publish & sell a Presentation Edition of the Music Version of Singing the Faith, priced at £50.00.

    My question is: do you plan to introduce a Presentation Edition of the Words Only Version of Singing the Faith in the foreseeable future?

    Thank you.

    • Editor says:

      Thanks for being in touch, Victor. I’m afraid that there are no plans to introduce a Presentation Edition of the Words Only Version of Singing the Faith in the foreseeable future.

  39. Helen Seal says:

    I’ve been asked to find out if you produce or are thinking of producing a words edition of StF with melody line only. Many of our ladies like to be able to read the tune but don’t want the cumbersome thick music edition due to its weight.

  40. J M Neilson says:

    Are plastic covers available for the music/choir edition of StF? If not are they going to be made available, preferably heavy duty? If there is no thought about selling these to cover copies of StF is there anywhere they can be purchased.
    Many thanks

    • Editor says:

      I’m afraid there are no plans to produce such covers but I will make sure that your query is passed on to the right place.

  41. David says:

    I have the electronic edition of StF which can only be installed on one computer. How do I go about changing which computer that is if/when I change the computer?

  42. Mairi says:


    Can you please tell me if there is any news on the print date for the organ music copy. We cannot ask our organist to battle much longer with the regular music version, it’s not fair.

    • Editor says:

      I’m afraid there is no planned date, Mairi. The original printing of the organ edition was made on a pre-order basis, with a few left over that have now been purchased. We are collecting the names of those who would be interested in purchasing a set if it were reprinted but it is likely that it will be some while before the numbers are large enough to justify the costs. In the meantime, please do register your interest by following the link on the All the Editions page of the site:

  43. Jill Baker says:

    My church has a Music Reproduction Licence, which allows us to photocopy not just the words but the music. As this can be a cumbersome process (photocopying from a large book is always awkward) I wondered if there is anywhere that i can download sheet music, which must exist electronically somewhere? Alternatively, can I request the hymns & songs required for our church choir to be e-mailed to me so that I can print from good black copies? Many thanks, Jill

  44. Deacon Jane Paine says:

    Hi, I suspect that a bar of music has been omitted from Singing the Faith 176 “Like a Candle Flame”. The words allow for the base line to sing “Come to save us” echoing the top line but there is no music for it. Can I suggest that, on the second page, the third bar of the base line should have the same notes as the second to last line on the first page and the words “Come to save us” should be printed underneath.
    We have tried singing it both ways and the hymn loses a lot without the echoing line.

  45. Geoff Squires says:

    Trying to work out if the presentation edition is worth buying – what are its measurements and what does it weigh??

  46. Malcolm S Biggs says:

    My problem notified on December 11th 2013 has now been satisfactorily dealt with by contact via

  47. Russ Smallwood (Copmanthorpe Methodist Church) says:

    Hi, at our church we have a 5 “techs” who prepare powerpoints for projection of hymn words during worship (we do not use hymn books). I have downloaded stf and my question is – can I share the activation code with the other techs so that the can also download stf? Or can you suggest any alternatives so that we call access electronic version of stf?
    Thank you,

  48. Mike Owens (Ludlow Methodist Church) says:

    I can no longer access the electronic version of StF on the church laptop.
    The error message says: The application cannot be initialised. Code 12.
    I have just applied an update to the Vista operating system, can this have causwed it?
    We are planning to upgrade to Windows 7 shortly.
    What should I do?

  49. David Littlejohns says:

    Who do I need to contact for permission to project the words of Pamela Pettitt’s “I have a dream, a man…”? I don’t yet have a copy of STF!

    • Editor says:

      Hi David – any hymns published on StF+ are available for reproduction for use in worship. If there are any copyright notes that should be displayed/printed these are included at the bottom of the text. (In this case: “Words © Estate of Pamela J. Pettitt (1954 – 2005), reproduced with permission”)

  50. John Brook says:

    Our Church organist has requested that we consider purchasing the organ edition of StF. However, can’t find it on the website?? Is it still available??
    She thought she could cope with the music edition, but experience has shown otherwise!

    • Editor says:

      Hi John – we’ve included information about the organ edition in the latest edition of the StF+ e-news ( The organ edition is now out of print/stock but notes of interest are being collected by Hymns Ancient and Modern. It will take a while to build up the numbers they would require to justify a reprint, but we are very much encouraged to ask! Use the email link in the newsletter.

  51. Helen Lunn says:

    Will the organ edition be reprinted at all? I missed a church meeting and in the minutes it was said about getting a copy and I have looked on line and I am presuming they are out of print? Is this correct?

    • Editor says:

      Hi Helen – we’ve included information about the organ edition in the latest edition of the StF+ e-news ( Yes, it is now out of print/stock but notes of interest are being collected by Hymns Ancient and Modern. It will take a while to build up the numbers they would require to justify a reprint, but we are very much encouraged to ask! Use the email link in the newsletter.

  52. Kim Taylor says:

    In “Our God is a great big God” (StF 61), shouldn’t the dotted crotchet A# at the end of bar 4 and the third beat of bar 7 be A natural?

    • Editor says:

      No, Kim, we believe not (though the option of playing an A natural is always in your hands, so to speak!).

      • Kim Taylor says:

        Oh. OK. It’s just that “Singing the Faith” and “Hymns Old and New” show it as A natural. And the chord is described as B7, which would suggest “B” “D#” “F#” and A natural. Shouldn’t the chord be described as Amaj7?
        And A# is amazingly horrible, sounding at the same time as the adjacent B…
        I think I’ll play A natural.

        • Paul McDowell says:

          I agree with Kim, and I think you may have misunderstood her point. It’s not the A# at the beginning of these bars but the ones in the middle (which haven’t been given a natural and should have). I hadn’t noticed it before as I automatically played A natural, but it really does seem to be an obvious error. The same applies to the same two bars in the coda.

  53. David Andrews says:

    The notes to the piano accompaniment CDs say there is a fully detailed booklet of CDs and tracks to download on the site – where is it please?
    Also can you provide a corrected cover for CD24 rather than just something on the website please?

    • Editor says:

      Hi David – the booklet is now available on the site as a PDF. Apologies for the delay. We’re looking at the possibltiy of providing the corrected cover for CD24 as a sticker.

  54. June Pritchard-Griffiths says:

    Good Morning,
    I wonder if you can help me please. I’m trying to find out if Singing the Faith, music edition, is now in a lightweight hardback edition.
    Thank you,
    June P-G

  55. Bob Finch says:

    I am searching for a download to complete the index where a page is missing in the music edition first edition? Sorry I cannot find it, I assume there is one? I have found the note recognising that the page is missing, I just can’t find the download.

    • Editor says:

      Hi Bob – simply go to our Frequently asked questions page and scroll down to “What happened to ‘w’ in the index?” – there’s a link to the download there. Any problems, though, and do get back in touch.

      • Bob Finch says:

        Thanks Editor I knew it was there somewhere. Unfortunately the link wont work for me. Can you get the computer people to check it for us please?

        • Editor says:

          Hi Bob – I think the problem is now sorted. Try the link again on the FAQ page. But do get back in touch if you’re still have an issue with the link.

  56. Kevin Wiles says:

    Is there a CD version of the Singing the Faith (Electronic Words) or is there only a download version?

  57. Brian Scott says:

    I seem to recall reading a while ago that there were plans to produce CDs of ORGAN accompaniments for StF. I note that you are releasing PIANO accompaniments – which is appreciated – but are my recollections about an organ version correct?

    • Editor says:

      Hi Brian – to my knowledge, we never specified “organ”, though we may have said “keyboard” at an earlier stage in the process. The final decision was to go with “as live” piano recordings – recorded on a grand piano. I hope this helps.

  58. Julie Maxon says:

    As soon as the accompaniment CDs are published, our chapel will be able to move to using Singing the Faith – we can’t wait!! In terms of the hymn books themselves (which we will be ordering shortly), we note from the FAQs section that the cover and binding were chosen for high quality and durability, but would plastic protection covers still be useful – and if so, does anyone know if these are available in the correct size for the ‘Words’ edition? Many thanks!

    • admin says:

      Hi Julie

      We have heard of one or two churches that have created their own covers, but there aren’t any available specifically for the words edition nor are there any plans in place to produce them in the foreseeable future.

      Responding while Laurence the STF+ editor is on holiday.

  59. Alan Bell says:

    I recall seeing information that the planned StF CDs would also contain MIDI files? Is this correct and when are they likely to be available?

  60. Liam McMullin says:

    I am a member of a choir in Galway. For many years we have sung ‘The Lord’s Prayer’ by Joseph Lees which is a beautiful arrangement. Who is Joseph Lees? I can find no information about him. Can anyone help?

    Liam McMullin

    • Editor says:

      Hi Liam – thanks for your enquiry. Like you, I can’t track down information about Joseph Lees – so, yes, any help will be gratefully accepted!

      • PHILIP BALDWIN says:

        Well, I am astonished that you couldn’t find Joseph Lees’ arrangement of the Lords Prayer. It’s 661 in Combined Mission Praise.!

        • Editor says:

          Hi Philip – the issue wasn’t finding Joseph Lees’ arrangement (StF 762). The question was – who is/was Joseph Lees? Do you know? Even the editors of StF say it was a mystery at the time of compiling the book.

      • Liam McMullin says:

        I have done a little further investigation. Please see a reply from the British Library who have a copy of the music in a collection printed by Reid Bros. London 1911.

        This is the reply from the BL:
        I have checked our on-line catalogue which you too may do so should you wish to if you have not done so already at: there if you enter for example ‘Joseph Lees’ you will be able to see what we have and what if available.
        Generally there does not appear to be very much on this individual, and there is no specific autobiography.
        However on digging a little deeper I found a reference to the on-line catalogue record below:

        Title: Jone o’ Grinfilt. Old Lancashire Song.
        Author: Joseph LEES
        Publication Details: Oldham : W. E. Clegg, [1894]

        Identifier: System number 002113240

        Physical Description: 1 sheet ; 8º.

        Shelfmark(s): General Reference Collection 1865.c.8.(56.)

        UIN: BLL01002113240

        I had a look at this item which is a one sheet item bound in a very large volume with other unrelated collection items. On the top of the page (which is no larger the A5) is written:

        Jone O’Grinfilt Old Lancashire Song by Joseph Lees, of Glodwick, Oldham.

        “Joseph Lees was originally a handloom weaver, but changed his vocation and became the village schoolmaster at Glodwick, a suburb of Oldham.
        The war with France had not long broken out, local patriotism ran high, the state of trade was exceedingly flat, and the necessities of life were becoming more costly, when Joseph Lees wrote this song in 1805.
        It immediately became popular in the neighbourhood, and for years the circle in which it was known and sung continually increased.
        On one occasion it was sung in London before King George 111, ‘who expressed his pleasure, and asked for an encore’, at least so says a contributor to the Oldham Chronicle (who signs himself “P”), for February 8th 1879.
        Joseph Lees was also the author of several other songs which were very popular in the district, but by far the greatest favorite of any of his writings was this ‘original Jone’. ‘Jone’ was purely an imaginary character the creation of the author’s brain’s.
        Jerry Lickenmoss (J.D.)”

        Wickipedia suggest that this Joseph Lees ( ie. Jone O’Grinfilt) lived 1748-1824.

        I don’t know if this Joseph Lees is the same as the composer of the Lord’s Prayer. Maybe someone in Glodwick, or Oldham, might have more information. Perhaps there are some parish or school records.
        Once again any information or lead would be most welcome.
        Many thanks

        Liam McMullin

        • Editor says:

          Hi Liam – many thanks for hunting this information. What do you think? My instinct is that the nature of the harmony (especially the chromaticism) makes it unlikely that a Joseph Lees who lived 1748-1824 will be the tune’s composer. But we’ll keep asking!

          • David Roebuck says:

            I use quite regularly a photocopy of a single page of an old publication of Lees’ “The Lord’s Prayer” which contains some possibly interesting details.
            1. The music (in the original (?) key of D flat) is complemented with the full 4-part “sol-fa” notation.
            2. It quotes Joseph Lees as the composer with the additional words “Handel House, Oldham” printed below his name.
            3. At the foot of the page is the following note: “N.B. In ordering this through Musicsellers or Stationers it is important [this word printed in italics, presumably for further emphasis] to mention that it is published by “REID BROS.”.
            4. Finally a (publisher’s?) reference number R. B. 845 is printed at the end of the page.
            In other references to this work I believe it appeared in a publication “The Christian Choralist no 47″.
            Maybe the (any?) successors of Reid Bros or the “Christian Choralist”‘s publisher might be a further line of enquiry?

          • Editor says:

            Hi David – thanks so miuch for this. We’re now gathering a few leads on this tune and will see what we can draw out of the information. Much appreciated.

          • Liam McMullin says:

            I think I have found him, although I don’t have dates. I must thank Shirley Brown, librarian at the Oldham Chronicle. I chased up the reference to the Oldham Chronicle from the British Library (above). She could find no record of the ‘Jone O’ Grinfilt’ Joseph Lees (1748-1824) but did have reference to a Joseph Lees who was an organist at the Hope Congragational church in Oldham who married a Gladys Craven also an organist , who seems to have been a distiguished musician and taught at the Lyceum School of music. Unfortunately both of these appear too young to have written the Lord’s prayer printed in 1911 by Reid publishers. They married in 1947. He died before 1950, she died 1984. The trail seemed to go cold.
            However, one of the pieces she sent me mentioned a Joseph Lees who was the first secretary and founder member of the Oldham and Distrct Organist’s Association in 1908. The current President of the Rochdale, Oldham and Tameside Organists Association told me on the ‘phone that at the centenary meeting and concert in 2008 they sang the Lord’s prayer which he confirmed was composed by this Joseph Lees. He thinks that this Joseph Lees would have been in his 40′s in 1908 giving him a birthdate sometime around 1868. He is going to chase up any further information he can find. It seems amazing that there should be two Joseph Lees’ who were organists in Oldham without being related to each other.
            In any event it should not now be difficult to get further autobiographical information on Joseph Lees – the first secretary of the Oldham and District Organist Association.
            Anyone in Oldham got any information?
            Liam McMullin

          • Editor says:

            Liam, this is wonderful.

  61. Ken Gibbs says:

    Question: is the tune in 152 ‘This is the day, this is the day when he rose again’ correct? The tune is a tone lower than in Mission Praise but the end of the third bar goes another tone lower. This leads to 5th, 6th and 7th bars written same as in Mission Praise, i.e. a tone higher than expected. And so on.
    Which tune is the correct Fiji folk melody: Mission Praise (which we and the congregation are used to) or StF?

    • Editor says:

      Hi Ken – yes, I’ve also been aware of these two different versions being around. And that’s the answer, I think. Two different versions. Both have been around for a while, even before Paul Leddington Wright’s arrangement for StF. Neither one is right or wrong, but it will be odd if you’re very used to one version to find yourself singing the other. It’s a matter of preference I think.

      • Ken Gibbs says:

        Thank you, I will try the StF one this Sunday. Just need to arrange/transpose it for our small wind band.

  62. Denise says:

    is there an electronic music edition ?

  63. Pete Watt says:

    Guitar chords. Is there any progress on sharing guitar chords for those hymns which don’t have them in STF? If not, is there any way guitarists can share the fruits of their time spent tracking down tunes in other hymn books/internet etc, changing the key to match STF etc etc? I spend a good deal of time on this each time our music group takes a service and I’m sure lots of other people have done too. How about a section of the website, sectioned by STF hymn no, where we could add tips for others (without infringing copyright, of course…

    • Editor says:

      Thanks, Peter – a helpful suggestion – we’ll look into this.


      Did I really read this? “….. Want guitar chords for another hymn?
      Work has begun on producing guitar chords for hymns in Singing the Faith where they do not already exist. We hope to post the chords on this site in due course. It’s a big task but ………”

      i) Please; don’t call them guitar chords!!!!!!! There is a host of keyboard players who cannot read left hand notation well enough to play from the page, and rely on chord symbols. Putting capo chords is no help at best and confusing at worst.
      ii) Some guitarists don’t use a capo. More confusion.
      iii) I prefer not to deface my music book with crossed out printed ‘wrong’ chords. Therefore I reserve the right to copy and print a modified page which is otherwise not fit for purpose in my case.
      iv) It is not my intention to infringe copyright, but …… since my style of playing is a glance at the chord symbols and a quick glance at the notation, then I cannot see any other way.
      v) I would be very willing to do chord analysis. I have more years of experience than I care to confess to, professional and amateur, at recognizing chords on the fly, it would not be a big task.

      • Editor says:

        Interesting points, Bernard. Thanks for being touch. This whole area is one we’re still looking at. Once we have more information, this will be posted on the site.

  64. John Fenner says:

    I need to migrate my StF Electronic Edition from one pc to another. I still have the unique key reference no but how do I download a new copy with the same key no?

    • Editor says:

      Hi John – have you checked all the help notes?

    • Editor says:

      Hi John – my apologies for the slow reposnse on this. If you’ve not already resolved this, I think your answer is to uninstall the software and then simply reinstall it elsewhere. If this is not what you mean, or doesn’t work for you, the best person to tlak to is Andrew Parker at (who published the Electronic Words Edition). I hope this helps.

  65. Dorothy Neal says:

    I am the appointed custodian of Singing The Faith software for Acomb methodist Church
    We have a CCLI licence no. 265246.
    How do I register this with Singing The Faith so that I can cut and paste words and/or music to another document?

    • Editor says:

      Dorothy – my apologies for a very slow response to your question. You may well have resolved this question already. If not:

      Singing the Faith is already licensed with CCL. You don’t need to register with Singing the FAith. Just fill in your Copy Report as usual. I hope this helps.

  66. Mary says:

    Whilst preparing to lead worship on Sunday I compared Mission Praise Combined 766 and Singing the Faith 723 “Who can sound the depths of sorrow in the Father heart of God” I was alarmed to see that verse 5 has been omitted from Singing the Faith. I am glad that we were using MPC or we would have missed this verse which surely is the culmination of the whole song:
    Who can sound the depths of mercy in the Father heart of God? For there is a Man of sorrows who for sinners shed His blood. He can heal the wounds of nations, He can wash the guilty clean; becasue of Jesus, because of Jesus, have mercy Lord!

  67. June Feather says:

    One of our Church organists wrote a Christingle hymn which we used and enjoyed at Christmas. I wonder if you would like to see it?

  68. Tabitha Griffiths says:

    Glad to hear that the Presentation edition is likely to become a reality, I’ve just filled in the survey but there was no room for comments. It would be extremely helpful if this edition were to be printed on off white paper (like the H&P & Worship Book presentation editions) I have Irlens syndrome & can only use STF with dark glasses or an overlay- both of which are are a pain in the pew but can distract others when you’re in the pulpit.

    • Editor says:

      Thanks for your comments, Tabitha, which I’ve also passed on directly to others involved in this conversation. In the meantime, I’ve also added all we currently know about the proposed specifications for the presentation edition onto our Other Editions page: The weight of the paper is expected to be same as for the Hymns & Psalms presentation. I don’t know how well this will work for you, as there is an element of “bleed through”. I hope this helps.

  69. Phil Blewett says:

    I have installed StF and input the key but not the CCL licence number. I produce the slides for my church’s services. The church has a CCL licence number how do I now input it?

    • Editor says:

      Hi Phil – because that’s a tehcnical question I need to refer you to the Hymns Ancient and Modern email contact: (You may also wish to ask about the laptop situation that you also enquired about, but I’m also asking elsewhere about that.)

  70. Phil Blewett says:

    I have purchased the electronic version of StF and installed it on my laptop OK, Is there any way I can purchase a second licence to install it on my desktop PB, or would i have to pay the full price again?

    • Editor says:

      Hi Phil, apologies for the slow response on this. Unfortunately, it appears that the answer to your question is “yes, we think so”. There is definitely not a licencing option: this was discussed but not granted. You may wish to confirm this with the publisher at

  71. John Fallows says:

    Please could you supply a complete list of the STF hymns which are excluded from projection without additional copyright release? Basically so I can warn our Minister and preachers – unprojectable hymns are a hassle we could do without.

    • Editor says:

      Hi John – mea culpa. I’ve been holding on to this and forgot that the answer is sitting right on our website!

      On the Copyright Matters page (found under the About StF drop-down menu), if you scroll down there is a section titled “Which hymns and songs within Singing the Faith are covered by CCLI or Calamus licences? “. The direct answer to your question is that CCLI won’t allow us to post a list of hymns exluded from projection without additional copyright release simply because the list (which is very small) does change from time to time. They do, however, provide links for their own up to date lists, which you can find on our site. Not quite the answer you were hoping for, I realise, but I hope this explains the situation. (And by the way, John, I should have a response to your other comments soon.)

  72. David Carter says:

    I am unable to complete the installation of the electronic version.
    I have the program key and purchased it!
    Each time it states that the program is incorrect, but I promise you it is exactly as on the envelope including ’1′ and not ‘l’ and ’0′ and not ‘O’.
    Any help to resolve this will be appreciated, thank you. DC

    • Editor says:

      I believe you, David! I’m sure there will be a simple explanation – please forward your query to the email address we have for all technical querieis to do with the electronic words edition –

      I hope that helps.

  73. Graham Lowther says:

    Please can you confirm whether there is likely to be a Bb/Eb edition of STF for clarinets, saxophones, trumpets etc as I have someone who can play one of these instruments but is not able to sight read from a standard edition.

    • Editor says:

      Hi Graham – I’m afraid I can’t confirm that for you, but will pass your enquiry on to the group that oversees Singing the Faith and all its offshoots.

  74. Joyce Pipet says:

    I know I should have done this way back, but never got round to it.
    Our music copies don’t have a complete index at the back.
    How can I access the information to get this. please?

  75. Nigel Bailey says:

    A member of our church has advised me that, even if we have a CCL licence, we may not reproduce words from Singing the Faith without specific permission from each copyright owner. However, this seems to fly in the face of what is stated on the CCLI website, which states expressly that part of the reason for having a licence is to avoid having to do that. The cause of this concern is the statement on page xii of STF that “for permission to reproduce copyright hymns and music from this colleciton… by whatever means… application must be made to the respective copyright owners…” On checking the “publisher” list provided by CCLI, I note that this includes Methodist Publishing, Trustees for Methodist Church Purposes and Hymns Ancient & Modern Ltd. Bearing all of this in mind, are you able to confirm that we may indeed reproduce the words on a projection screen under the terms of our CCL licence?
    Any help would be appreciated.

    • Editor says:

      Nigel – apologies for the much delayed resposne to your question. This may well be something you’ve resolved by now. If not…

      The information you quote from the printed edition of StF refers only to the book (and relates to photocopying parts of it). The book is registered with CCL and so long as you have a CCLI licence you can reproduce hymns for purposes of worship e.g. on a hymn sheet or on PowerPoint. (The only exceptions to this are the handful of individual authors not covered by CCL – for an up to date list, you need to go to the CCL site and check. (See our Copyright page for mor information

  76. Mark Ramsey says:

    I see from the FAQ that there are no plans for a “presentation edition” because of the quality & durability of the bindings for the standard edition.
    Well, I’m not interested in that, what I want is a lighter, smaller music edition – which is why I bought the presention edition of Hymns & Psalms before, and why I won’t be buying the current music edition of StF. (Clearly the “special bookplates” now available won’t make a music edition smaller or lighter!)
    Can I plead for a lighter, smaller music edition of StF – whether you want to call it a “presentation edition” or not!

    • Editor says:

      Hi Mark – as you probably realise, you’re not the first person to raise this matter. It has been under discussion for some time but priority had to be given to publishing the organ edition (now done). Research on a possible “presentation edition” (or equivalent) has been going on for a while and we will put some information on the site as soon as possible. We’re reluctant to post any news until we’re clearer about the options ourselves, and these are more complicated than one might expect! Many thanks for being in touch.

  77. Roger Collins says:

    Singing the faith has got itself into a right mess with language in some hymns traditional language has remained, and in other hymns its been removed, Trying to work on the logic that has applied to this issue appears very difrficult for there doesnt appear to be any logic. I cannot believe the changes I have to make after using hymn quest to ensure compatibility with the hymn book, if only the cd linked with powerpoint directly then lotsof time would be saved

    • Editor says:

      I’m sorry you’re encountering this frustration, Roger. I think it’s inevitable that different editorial approaches create these differences between versions. The variations between StF and Hymnquest is a very good example.

  78. Victor E. Vine says:

    StF 547 Corrections of 25 Sept say amendments have been made. How can I access them ?

    • Editor says:

      Thanks for your enquiry, Victor. Only a minor adjustment has been made to this tune in later editions of StF – simply to clarify the underlay of vv.2&3 at full bars 4 and 6. These were not substantive amendments – simply the addition of optional slurs as suggested by Alastair (see his comments at the post for this hymn). These are now only available in the latest music edition of StF but you should probably be able to pencil in this adjustment in your own copy. Do get back in touch if you want further clarification.

  79. Gwynneth Savage says:

    We have just taken delivery of the organ copies of STF. I was a little disappointed to find they were not ring bound to make for easy page turning , but I find they do sit on the piano fairly well. However it has not solved the problem of the musician needing to turn pages for every verse when part of the hymn is on the following page. Is there any way that the third and in some cases fourth pages of hymns could be available for download so that a file could be made to use alongside the books.

    • Editor says:

      Thanks, Gwynneth. We will look at this and get back to you.

      • Peter Harding says:

        If our experience of Mission Praise is anything to go by, spiral-bound volumes would have lasted only a few years before losing pages like confetti.

        Having said that I am building a file of photocopied page turns, that I intend to spiral-bind when complete. (Strictly for personal use alongside the printed version so I hope copyright is not an issue). There are, however, an awful lot of them!

        • Editor says:

          Whisper it, but this is surely the way to go. (As you say, strictly for personal use.) Another correspondent tells me that she has calculated 88 photocopied sheets “to cover all eventualities”.

  80. Adrian Clarkson says:

    Just received the 3 volume Organ Edition this morning and what a beautiful job it is! Many thanks to the publishers for responding to feedback regarding this. The “sit flat on the music rest” binding is superb, the type size and clarity excellent. Can’t wait to start using it.
    Well done!

    • Peter Harding says:

      123% agree with Adrian. They are printed on quality paper, superbly bound and I am really looking forward to choir practice tonight for their debut. And I hope our hard-of-seeing alto will be pleased with her set as well.
      Thank you!

      • Editor says:

        Thanks Peter – your comments will be passed on. I like your very precise “123%”. Does this refer to the 1, 2 & 3 volumes?!

        • Peter Harding says:

          Small update – I have vandalised them by using a marker pen to write the hymn ranges on the the base of each volume. This is to let me pick up the right volume quickly rather than needing to squint at the gold block on the from of each volume! Perhaps they should have been bound as red, white and blue to celebrate the year of publication!!

  81. Patrick Smith says:

    I have purchased a Program Key. When loading it I forgot to put in the CCLI number for my Church. Now I find that many of the hymns are not available to export to Word or pdf (which I need to do in order to get the text into Songpro so that I can project the hymns).
    I can’t work out how to go back to the original installation so that I can enter the CCLI number.
    Can you help please?

  82. PHILIP BALDWIN says:

    Norwich, the distributors for the organ edition tell me they have 900 orders in and are expecting to send them all out during the first two weeks of October.

  83. Kevin Thomas says:

    Will any samples of the CD backing tracks and midi files be made available prior to going on sale?

    • Editor says:

      Hi Kevin – absolutely. My apologies that they are not yet on the site. I hope to put them up in the next day or two.

      • Kevin Thomas says:

        Thanks Ed that’s great. I can play them at our next stewards meeting. Would there be any chance of a couple of midi files? Thanks. Kevin

        • Editor says:

          Hi Kevin – I’ll look at that.

          • Editor says:

            Have you seen the MP3 files?

          • Kevin Thomas says:

            Yes I have. I’ve listened to them and will be playing them at our Stewards Meeting on Monday when we’ll be discussing buying a set. I specifically listened to Long Ago Prophets Knew as it is one that often gets played quite/too slowly. Overall I was pleased with the quality.

            I noticed a comment about providing them on a USB data stick. From a “techie” point of view having everything on one stick as opposed to 40 CDs would be a huge bonus! Thanks.

  84. Bob Finch says:

    Good news today about the consideration being given to a Braille edition. Visually impaired people are so often excluded. It’s good that the Torch Trust are looking into this, with modern technology this hopefully will not be too much of a problem, so long as the Copyright cops don’t interfere excessively.
    And more good news in the same update message. Not quite sure why this should cost quite so much or why the media chosen is to be 40 CD’s. Most CD’s will take up to 700 Mb; average sound recordings are 1 Mb a minute. This suggests that to record backing tracks will take 28,000 minutes (about 466 hours) approx. However, I accept that I am not doing it, Coventry are – well done and thanks to them.
    Has it also been considered that these recordings could also be placed on a memory stick? At 28Gb just one memory stick is possible although working our how to arrange the tracking of 840 separate songs will entertain somebody for a few minutes (not too difficult to resolve). There would be, comparatively, minimal copying costs, no printing costs, no jewel boxes to put the CD’s in, minimal postage costs and relatively simple equipment to replay them on.
    The final overall cost of production and dispatch would be much lower and as the digitisation would have already been done, consumers should be offered the choice.

    • Editor says:

      Thanks for all this, Bob. I have ensured that the team working on the backing tracks see this. The Braille ediiton has been complicated (copyright issues again) but has been a priority from day one – colleagues are working hard to make this work.

  85. David Roebuck says:

    In the indexes of both Words and Music editions the hymn “Lord God, your love …”, now known as “Great God, your love …”, is incorrectly shown as at No 500, whereas it is in fact at 499!
    Under “Lord God, your love …” the Music edition also indicates the wrong tune of “Antwerp” (which is actually at number 500!) instead of “Abingdon”.

  86. Anthony Thomas says:

    Why has “Mead House” been dropped as the set tune for “God is love: let heaven adore him” (103)?

    It fits the words much better than Hyfrydol – especially the last word of the next to last line where you now have to sing a-a-a-aching or e-e-e-ever. If it was going to be changed at all then the previous alternative of ARFON would have made more sense.

  87. Anthony Thomas says:

    Why has Mead House been dropped as the tune for “God is love: let Heaven adore him” (103)? It fits the words far better than Hyfrydol – especially the next to last line wher you have to sing a-a-a-aching and e-e-e-ever. If it was going to be changed at all then ARFON which used to be the suggested alternative would have been a more sensible choice.

    • Editor says:

      Hi Anthony – thanks for your comment. A member of the group that dealt with the music for StF tells me; “I have to say I can’t recall exactly. My guess would be was that it was considered a hymn that would have more legs if it had a tune that people could latch on to – Hyfrydol does at least enable that.”

  88. Derek Long says:

    On time signatures: it is quite rare for hymn books to print them – from a large collection I find about 3 out of 20 doing so.

  89. Kip Bennett says:

    Is anybody else disappointed with version 2 of the electronic edition? I have just installed the upgrade, and now I cannot read the words on the low resolution screen making the thing a complete pain to use. I have asked Methodist Publishing House for instructions on how to downgrade back to version 1.

    • Editor says:

      Hi Kip – just to say that the Methodist Publishing House probably isn’t your best route for addressing this issue – best to use the email link that you’ll find on the Electronic Words Edition page of the website.

  90. Dave Dickinson says:

    Is there a malapropism in line 7 of verse 1 of 139? Unless Bell and Maule intended to suggest that gold slips and slides across the sky, most of us would expect to see patterns formed with slivers of gold. It would be the more natural meaning of the line. Do you know what Bell and Maule’s intention was?

  91. Leslie Noon says:

    I have just installed a new computer and therefore needed to reinstall my electronic edition of Singing the Faith. However when it comes to adding in my details and the installation key, it won’t allow me to. It says the email address is already in use (presumably from when I installed it on my old computer). I tried putting in an alternate email address, but it still won’t allow me to proceed. Please can you tell me what to do!!

  92. David Murray says:

    I have been trying to find out when the next impression of the music edition will be published with all the corrections that have been identified, listed and posted independently, but this information is lacking. Comments suggest dissatisfaction with the quality of the first edition, and a lack of thorough checking and proof-reading. I understand that the words edition has been corrected, but when is the music edition going to follow? (I am not referring to the proposed organ edition or presentation edition requested here)

    • Editor says:

      Hi David – we’ve got more information on this now on the website – follow the link from the home page.

  93. Llyn Frost says:

    Would it be possible to publish the full music edition of Singing the Faith as a PDF so that it can be read by Music Reader on the iPad. Many musicians now use this.

    • Editor says:

      Hi Llyn – I suspect this is not an option at present but I will certainly forward your suggestion to those who negotiate the publication editions. Thanks for your input.

  94. Elizabeth Moore says:

    Whilst I appreciate that we will not be having a Queen’s Diamond Jubilee every year, I have found it difficult to find music for the National Anthem!!!! (I eventually found it glued into the rear in one copy of the original Hymns and Songs full music edition – none of the 12 or so other copies of that book at our Church had it in.) Would it be possible to have 2 verses of the National Anthem, plus music, in the forth coming Organ copy of Singing the Faith? ~Even if that, too, is an addition glued inside the rear cover.

    • Editor says:

      Hi Elizabeth – there was a considered decision by the editorial group for Singing the Faith not to include the National Anthem. (As you will have perhaps surmised from the “stuck in” version included in Hymns & Psalms, a similar debate took place for that publication also!) However, I’ll pass on your comment on to those dealing with the organ edition. Thanks for being in touch.

  95. Editor says:

    Hi Peter – I see what you mean. The number of syllables in the two lines is different from the equivalent lines in the other verses. However, this is only a question of text layout (which we are checking with our source material). If you sing the words of both lines straight through, they do fit the melody, with the phrase breaking like this: “of how the Holy Spirit change / ‘s life through changing lives” (which gives you the second 8.6. of the Common Metre). Hope that makrs sense – it’s a little tricky to explain, but it does work!

  96. Bob Finch says:

    I was advised by the publishers that I should read the instructions more carefully, and that had I done so I could download these versions by clicking on the authors name. I have found that this is the case and have been able to carry out the downloads and make the conversion into PowerPoint. Naughty me for not reading the instructions!

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